Curse

belshazaarswrath · Jun 10, 2010, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Quote:

Why are we being told by ArenaNet and NCSoft to email support, if support has no intention of even listening to what we have to say (as evidenced by the automated replies)?

Because they really don't care about the people they used as an example even if they were innocent. They are simply doing this to save face.

Quote:

How can ArenaNet and NCSoft be so absolutely sure (as evidenced by Martin Kerstein's responses quoted above, and again, the automated support replies) that, in a case of three thousand seven hundred bans, there can not be any margin of error?

To any normal person it would be obvious that there has to be a margin of error. I guess they think their way of doing things are just that good? Pretty arrogant if you ask me...

No matter how good their system is they need to give people a chance because there will always be mistakes made.

Shadowspawn X · Jun 10, 2010, 05:54 AM // 05:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

No matter how good their system is they need to give people a chance because there will always be mistakes made.

People cheated and that's the bottom line. Begging for mercy after the fact is a waste of time. Just move on.

belshazaarswrath · Jun 10, 2010, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowspawn X

People cheated and that's the bottom line. Begging for mercy after the fact is a waste of time. Just move on.

What the hell are you talking about?

If Anet made a mistake then the person who was banned unjustly should be let back into the game.

Unless you think people should just be banned at random?

Gill Halendt · Jun 10, 2010, 07:04 AM // 07:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

If Anet made a mistake then the person who was banned unjustly should be let back into the game.

As far as we know each case is being reviewed and, quite frankly, I tend to believe Gaile's statements on this more than some random guy.

They then send automated e-mails to confirm the termination. So? Did you expect them to send individual e-mails to each user appealing for the ban? Won't happen, EVER. Support is there for a reason, they're not penpushers you know.

I was unjustly banned one year ago (involved in the "payment fraud" glitch on the store). I received automated responses all the time but still, my ban was lifted in the end. Guess what? Even the final message communicating the resolution of this incident was an automated response. You can't just assume that the don't review players' situations just because they've no time to waste with custom replies to each of the multiple tickets sent by 3700 people, expecially since most of those are contacting support with no margin of appeal as they're confirmed botters...

Iuris · Jun 10, 2010, 10:06 AM // 10:06

For some reason, people keep forgetting that an appeal requires actual grounds for an appeal. Why would an appeal going "but I only botted for two weeks!" warrant anything more than an automated response?

The "appeal to support" was meant for people with false positives - NOT for those guilty.

Move Down · Jun 10, 2010, 03:39 PM // 15:39

well i never botted and got banned and support didnt do anything they suck.
and i will never touch any ncsoft game again

belshazaarswrath · Jun 10, 2010, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

As far as we know each case is being reviewed and, quite frankly, I tend to believe Gaile's statements on this more than some random guy.

And I tend to believe in the numbers more than Gaile...

3700 people is a lot of people and there must be at least 1 person who is innocent. And that person deserves to have a channel in which he can get his account back even if he is the only innocent one.

Gill Halendt · Jun 10, 2010, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

And I tend to believe in the numbers more than Gaile...

3700 people is a lot of people and there must be at least 1 person who is innocent. And that person deserves to have a channel in which he can get his account back even if he is the only innocent one.

Sure.

And what leads you to believe that this one person is a Guru member? Why do you assume that innocent people are wasting their time claiming their innocence in the wrong place, such as unofficial forums like this? How do you know that the few innocent people around haven't got their accounts back yet? Why do you believe that each Guru member claiming his/her innocence is actually innocent?

When the Online Store payment system glitched last year, it took 2 weeks for support to review and fix each unjustly terminated account. 2 weeks, and I'm pretty sure the number of accounts involved was much lower than 3700.

Automated responses still come after some review: if people are confirmed positive, the channel is closed, as there's no ground to appeal. How's that difficult to understand? What did you expect?

It's naive to say the least to assume that Support is keeping innocent people out of the game out of spite... To me, it's much easier to believe that these people are actually not that innocent...

belshazaarswrath · Jun 10, 2010, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Sure.

And what leads you to believe that this one person is a Guru member? Why do you assume that innocent people are wasting their time claiming their innocence in the wrong place, such as unofficial forums like this? How do you know that the few innocent people around haven't got their accounts back yet? Why do you believe that each Guru member claiming his/her innocence is actually innocent?

When the Online Store payment system glitched last year, it took 2 weeks for support to review and fix each unjustly terminated account. 2 weeks, and I'm pretty sure the number of accounts involved was much lower than 3700.

Automated responses still come after some review: if people are confirmed positive, the channel is closed, as there's no ground to appeal. How's that difficult to understand? What did you expect?

It's naive to say the least to assume that Support is keeping innocent people out of the game out of spite... To me, it's much easier to believe that these people are actually not that innocent...

I don't see why whether their on the forum or not matters. I'm talking about in the grand scale rather than just here.

Gill Halendt · Jun 10, 2010, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

I don't see why whether their on the forum or not matters. I'm talking about in the grand scale rather than just here.

It matters: you won't know about unbanned people unless they let you know.

You can't safely assume innocent people are being left out just because most of the Guru users contacting support with no reasonable ground for appeal have received automated responses.

belshazaarswrath · Jun 10, 2010, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

It matters: you won't know about unbanned people unless they let you know.

You can't safely assume innocent people are being left out just because most of the Guru users contacting support with no reasonable ground for appeal have received automated responses.

Without specific instances of people who were unjustly banned you can still say with a fair level of confidence that at least a few of the people were banned unjustly just by the sheer amount of people and the methods that anet used (or at least that I've been told that they used).

Guru or no guru there are still people who have been unjustly banned and they deserve a channel in which to get their account back rather than an automated response that will in the end get them nowhere no matter what.

I'm not saying the vast majority didn't deserve it. I'm just sayin the few that got hit for no reason are a big deal.

Gill Halendt · Jun 10, 2010, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

Guru or no guru there are still people who have been unjustly banned

And the source of these claim is...? Guru members posting here in this thread? Statistics? "There must be one" isn't really relevant, you know...

Quote:

Originally Posted by belshazaarswrath

and they deserve a channel in which to get their account back rather than an automated response that will in the end get them nowhere no matter what.

They do have a channel. Contacting support is it. They also need some ground for appeals.

Again, they'll get "automated" responses in most cases. Mind you that "automated responses" are actually pre-formatted messages sent manually by GMs. Even the "We reviewed your incident and we realized you were banned in error" a player would receive if unbanned is a pre-written, copy-pasted message.

All we know by this topic is that some Guru users have been contacting Support, Support reviewed their situation and found them guilty and chose not to lift their ban.

Martin Alvito · Jun 10, 2010, 09:50 PM // 21:50

I see two issues on the table in this thread. I am not convinced that either can be resolved through further discussion.

1) Claim: ANet must have banned innocent people.

There's no existence proof for this. An unjustly banned player could supply an existence proof if it were possible to provide evidence that they did not cheat, but this is not possible. We can never know with certainty how ANet determined who got banned; it's to their advantage to be as opaque as possible. As a result, it's impossible for the community as a whole to ever know whether unjust bans were handed out. All we can do is speculate. I'd guess that at least one unjust ban occurred, but I can't be sure.

2) Claim: If accounts have been banned unjustly, ANet must respond and remedy the injustice.

Whether or not they're obligated to resolve that problem (assuming it exists) depends on your views about justice. If you take a Mill utilitarian approach and argue that what's good for the community as a whole is by definition just, then in making the community better ANet is justified in handing out a few unwarranted bans. If you take a more Jeffersonian approach that it is better for the cheaters to prosper than to ban the innocent, then ANet's actions are not.

Philosophers argue about the meaning of justice because there is no definitive answer, only answers that justice definitively is not. Either perspective in the thread is valid, and further argument will just go in circles.

Is there anything that I'm missing here, or is it time to shut this one down?

Gondrakif · Jun 11, 2010, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

An unjustly banned player could supply an existence proof if it were possible to provide evidence that they did not cheat, but this is not possible.

Bulls-eye. That is the main problem: once you are banned (rightfully or not) there is nothing you can do to prove Anet wrong, and since Anet has already found you guilty there is no reason for them to lift the ban. Yeah sure people make mistakes but that isn't absolute so there is a chance that all terminated accounts were indeed botting (and i expect them to have double-checked everything before terminating an account to zero out false positives). But as Gill Halendt said there may be accounts where the ban was lifted and we just don't know about them because they don't use forums or go around spamming it in-game.

Faith_Hope_Lost · Jun 11, 2010, 05:56 PM // 17:56

An astute and succinct post Martin Alvito, all I can say then is…. Woot I’m collateral damage. Then lay down and die.

Move Down · Jun 11, 2010, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Same here collateral damage but i was good for 4 accounts on 3 i had a gwamm.
And no thx to NCSOFT i am gonna break the EULA and sell the other accounts.
And 3 of my friends i always played with stopped too.
NCsoft is doing more harm to the game then the botters if you ask me

Emunator · Jun 11, 2010, 08:54 PM // 20:54

When i tell them :

Quote:

Please dont close this whitout an actual response.
It really hurts that i lost all my acomplishments over 4 years.
Like i said before i never botted since i dont need it.
I was just coming back to play guild wars a bit more after a long time of hardly playing.
I was enjoying the new Kryta quests since you people are doing a great job atm with the new content.
I did buy costumes in the online store to support you people even more towards guild wars 2.
And now i get treated like this.

Like i explained before i dont play PvP, so no need for interrupt bots, snowball throwing bots or whatever they made.

The raptor bot what i did read was one of the most used wouldn't be useful for me either since i dont farm raptors/vaettirs, you can see that in my logs.
You can even check my characters, my oldests one would be the elementalist and he has not even been to Ratasum to farm raptors. My warrior is in pre-searing.

Yes i am sorry that i did use Faker and injected dll, but ksmod is allowed and it does inject too.
Texmod is also allowed as a 3rd party programm so is gwx2.

But it all comes down to that i never did anything to give me an unfair advantage.
Check your logs for real please and you can see that.

But i beg of you please restore my account and i will promise from my side i wont use those 3rd party applications anymore.

And they respond with this :

Quote:

Hello,

If you do not recall using any third-party programs you may wish to check with anyone else in your house that has access to your Guild Wars account. Please understand that we do not provide the exact methods used to pinpoint the offense. This preserves our ability to track and monitor the offending activity being used. Due to the violations committed by this account, it will remain closed. We will not accept appeals in cases such as this because of the depth of the analysis prior to the block. We regret the necessity of terminating any game account, but we will continue to take all necessary actions to protect the Guild Wars community and to assure that players are abiding by our User Agreement.

Please keep in mind that Guild Wars is a global game with hundreds of thousands of players. This means that standards of behavior must be upheld. For your convenience, you can obtain more information about our rules at the addresses listed below.

- User Agreement: http://www.guildwars.com/support/leg...-agreement.php

- Rules of Conduct: http://www.guildwars.com/support/leg...sofconduct.php

- Conduct Breaches & Outcomes: http://www.guildwars.com/support/leg...d_outcomes.php

Regards,

Lead GM Oghma
The Guild Wars Support Team

They are definitly not reading. since i told them i used a 3rd party app, and they are only using auto responses, i have had enough of them for now since there is not a single sign of humanity left.

Zarion Silverarrow · Jun 11, 2010, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Move Down

Same here collateral damage but i was good for 4 accounts on 3 i had a gwamm.
And no thx to NCSOFT i am gonna break the EULA and sell the other accounts.
And 3 of my friends i always played with stopped too.
NCsoft is doing more harm to the game then the botters if you ask me

The point of the massive bans was to "make the players happy,please them" (this isn't purely my idea,another guy said it before,but I just agree and wanted to say it)

Making 3 of your friends to quit wont make A-net lose money. You already payed for GW1,and with GW2 they will lose $150ish,nothing.

Sure there are others,but the # of unbanned people+banned because they did bot,outweights the unjustly banned that are not going to buy NCsoft games anymore.

I for one,do not care who makes the game. I will buy GW2,it seems fun.

Though,I will use nothing,nada,zero,not even a program made by A-net,if it influences GW2 in anyway,I will not use it.

Emunator · Jun 16, 2010, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Well guess they wont unban anyone.
This is the last ticket i made towards them

Quote:

Thank you for ruining over 4 years of playing guild wars for me.

You people are not even reading my defenses since I only get automated responses and you people keep closing my tickets.

So the last time I tell this to you, I did never bot.
Yes I used a 3rd party app that might be wrong in your eyes but it did never give me any advantage over anyone else. So I could live with a temporary ban.

I really don’t want to buy a new account since I don’t have the time to replay everything again.

So the last time I ask, please look into my account and have it reinstated.
And please give me an honest direct answer not one of those automated ones.

Greetings,
Eric Huigens.

Then they responded with the following

Quote:

Response (GM Oghma)
Hello again,

This game account was found to have used a disallowed third-party program. As previously stated this account will remain closed; this is our final decision on the matter.

Regards,

Lead GM Oghma
The Guild Wars Support Team

Guess no matter what reason they will not unban anyone from those account bans.
They could check their logs to see i never botted but that doesnt matter to them.
It seems that they only want to show people how good they try to do something against botters.
To bad their is not a single sign of humanity left by at least saying "What you did was wrong, you have been banned for over 2 weeks now and we will make it a temp ban."

Well i dont know what to do anymore besides taking it to court wich is going to be expensive since their closest office is in the UK, to bad they dont have an office in The Netherlands.

Tullzinski · Jun 17, 2010, 01:02 PM // 13:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emunator

Finally a little spark of hope.
Gaile Gray decided to look into my banning.
Seems they can be human when they want too.

I have mailed her all the info she asked for and now i will just have to wait.

I hope it works out for you. Was this program like the achievement faker thing that is all over WOW?

edit: you may want to remove your real name from the above posts, call me paranoid but it would not hurt.